The Principia Discordia is the primary text of Discordianism, which has been described as either an elaborate joke disguised as a religion or a religion disguised as an elaborate joke, depending on who you ask. One section describes a short dialogue between the
Absolutely agree it's not human nature to be a "manipulative sociopath", to be brutal, selfish, war-mongering, etc. I see so much kindness and generosity in the worst of situations and it takes my breath away. But unfortunately, it IS human nature for some to be manipulative and others, the majority, it seems, to be susceptible to manipulation, to fail to perceive the larger picture, to see through the lies and to have the courage to challenge them. It's human nature to trust appearances instead of digging deep for the underlying truth. And no, this isn't blaming the victim. It's just reality that most people choose comfort, what's familiar, what's right in front of them, what others appear to be choosing, conventional "wisdom" etc.
It's human nature to not be aware and to resist the pain of waking up. It's human nature to want to trust what's familiar, to not realize or own one's power, and to make choices based on unconscious drives.
One curiosity is that 'the good ones' among us are happy to go through our lives as best we can.
'the bad ones' seek power and control and whatever form of glory is manufactured in their fearful, distorted brains. Hence, we get Hitlers and Trumps and even the Bidens and Obamas and surely the Clintons. Same with tv personalities, 'industry leaders' like Bezos. We have to stop giving our power to 'the bad ones'...
I remember when I was young my parents told me bigotry and competition are just human nature. Now I know they were both brainwashed and they don’t question the system.
There are more than enough resources and kind people for everyone to be fed, sheltered, educated, healed, creative and loved.
We are propagandized by the system but also by our own survival brains which filter our perception of reality. The hundreds of cognitive biases/shortcuts we are wired for are like a constant internal “fake news” broadcast which propagandizes us often before our system does.
Believing we are the voice in the head makes our thinking and reacting compulsive and dysfunctional and produces the system which in turn produces the empathy deficient. Their nature is an advantage in a society which looks like our tribal brain in survival/crisis mode: a society which favors hierarchy and competition and deception and makes submission to a dominator/leader feel normal.
Our loving, caring and collaborative side is frequently suppressed by this ancient survival mode which emerges as a response to mental dysfunction that is interpreted by the body as unsafe. Our own egoic conditioning ( compulsive identification with thought) then replicates and reinforces this tribal survival mode through the social system it creates.
This is interesting and thankyou for writing. Unfortunately, it amounts to mere semantics. What you're describing as a solution (good people rise up) has been proposed for millennia and has never worked. Good people have ideas and principles, and those ideas are coopted by people who are not good. This is the story of the Soviet Union and arguably of the United States too, although calling the founding Fathers "good" is now a political statement that I don't want to get into. Anyway, it is human nature to destroy itself because it is constantly happening, just as it is the honey bee's nature to collect nectar because that is constantly happening, not because it's what it should do.
Hardly such a simple solution. How do we discern who is a psychopath? “Psychopath” replaces “devil” in a simplistic explanations of evil doing. Mental health professionals haven’t been able to define who is or is not a “psychopath” to meet standards of scientific reliability. About half of the American electorate voted for two of the folks in the picture.
Yes some humans are good some are bad, but that is a straw man argument for whether or not humans are inherently self interested.
Whenever someone tells me true selflessness exists, they often cite taking a bullet for a loved one as an example of the ultimate selfless sacrifice. But imagine that person would have rather they been the one who died?
When you impose your will on reality, you are attempting to align reality as it is, with reality as you’ve imagined it. Because the imagination is composed entirely of yourself, no act of will can truly be selfless. Unless you can actually enter the mind of another person, you are just guessing what someone’s interests are based on your perspective. Yes empathy centers in our brain counteract our selfish impulses and give us chemical rewards when we successfully anticipate the interests of our fellow monkeys. But without the reward system to make empathetic actions within our self interest, we become the manipulative sociopaths you describe.
The success of capitalism is realizing that all action is self interested action. It creates reward centers outside the brain with labor vouchers to incentivize behavior that is beneficial to the community as a whole. Obviously in modern times capitalism taken to the extreme has yielded the negative outcomes you speak of which I agree are problems of unregulated self interests of a few very powerful individuals. Socialist programs and waaaaaay more transparency and honesty and TRUTH are going to be how we counteract that you’re so right.
But I don’t think you have to whimsically dismiss the concept of intrinsic self interest which is very well argued for in philosophy and has a lot more scientific evidence to back it up. This is probably why people are so stubborn when you insist it’s not true. Certainly there are degrees, not every action is as selfish as another. But EVERY act of empathy has some degree of self interest, even if it’s purely neurochemical.
Man's existence precedes his essence. We choose our own nature, and in doing so, we define what we would like all humanity to be and contribute to that goal.
We are animals and animals do have competitive natures.. the fact that we have evolved societies that are based on cooperation tells us we have indeed evolved. But it is no surprise that there are many still on the animal level.. and not just our supreme leaders.. at every level of society there are sociopaths. malignant narcissists... that has to be admitted and dealt with.. in an organized manner... if we can heal the local ecosystem, we might have a shot at healing the big time ones.
Caitlin, this would have made a great sermon at the National Cathedral this Sunday - really. The Why not stop? question is, of course, the correct one - the moral one. But nobody seems able to answer it. That is what happens when emotion (fear and loathing) dominates reasoning. Even simple solutions are unfathomable.
Absolutely agree it's not human nature to be a "manipulative sociopath", to be brutal, selfish, war-mongering, etc. I see so much kindness and generosity in the worst of situations and it takes my breath away. But unfortunately, it IS human nature for some to be manipulative and others, the majority, it seems, to be susceptible to manipulation, to fail to perceive the larger picture, to see through the lies and to have the courage to challenge them. It's human nature to trust appearances instead of digging deep for the underlying truth. And no, this isn't blaming the victim. It's just reality that most people choose comfort, what's familiar, what's right in front of them, what others appear to be choosing, conventional "wisdom" etc.
It's human nature to not be aware and to resist the pain of waking up. It's human nature to want to trust what's familiar, to not realize or own one's power, and to make choices based on unconscious drives.
One curiosity is that 'the good ones' among us are happy to go through our lives as best we can.
'the bad ones' seek power and control and whatever form of glory is manufactured in their fearful, distorted brains. Hence, we get Hitlers and Trumps and even the Bidens and Obamas and surely the Clintons. Same with tv personalities, 'industry leaders' like Bezos. We have to stop giving our power to 'the bad ones'...
I remember when I was young my parents told me bigotry and competition are just human nature. Now I know they were both brainwashed and they don’t question the system.
There are more than enough resources and kind people for everyone to be fed, sheltered, educated, healed, creative and loved.
We are propagandized by the system but also by our own survival brains which filter our perception of reality. The hundreds of cognitive biases/shortcuts we are wired for are like a constant internal “fake news” broadcast which propagandizes us often before our system does.
Believing we are the voice in the head makes our thinking and reacting compulsive and dysfunctional and produces the system which in turn produces the empathy deficient. Their nature is an advantage in a society which looks like our tribal brain in survival/crisis mode: a society which favors hierarchy and competition and deception and makes submission to a dominator/leader feel normal.
Our loving, caring and collaborative side is frequently suppressed by this ancient survival mode which emerges as a response to mental dysfunction that is interpreted by the body as unsafe. Our own egoic conditioning ( compulsive identification with thought) then replicates and reinforces this tribal survival mode through the social system it creates.
Profit motive kills logic. It won't matter if we shift to cryptocurrencies as long as this fundamental issue remains unaddressed.
Caitlin Johnstone for Tulsi Gabbard's secretary of [Defense, State, HHS, DHS,...] I'm ready to subscribe to a matriarchal government. (I think)
You are confusing psychopaths with sociopaths. Note that psychopaths sow confusion and chaos in order to remain hidden. Think about it.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference
This is interesting and thankyou for writing. Unfortunately, it amounts to mere semantics. What you're describing as a solution (good people rise up) has been proposed for millennia and has never worked. Good people have ideas and principles, and those ideas are coopted by people who are not good. This is the story of the Soviet Union and arguably of the United States too, although calling the founding Fathers "good" is now a political statement that I don't want to get into. Anyway, it is human nature to destroy itself because it is constantly happening, just as it is the honey bee's nature to collect nectar because that is constantly happening, not because it's what it should do.
https://www.theonion.com/humanity-surprised-it-still-hasn-t-figured-out-better-a-1819576640
Hardly such a simple solution. How do we discern who is a psychopath? “Psychopath” replaces “devil” in a simplistic explanations of evil doing. Mental health professionals haven’t been able to define who is or is not a “psychopath” to meet standards of scientific reliability. About half of the American electorate voted for two of the folks in the picture.
Yes some humans are good some are bad, but that is a straw man argument for whether or not humans are inherently self interested.
Whenever someone tells me true selflessness exists, they often cite taking a bullet for a loved one as an example of the ultimate selfless sacrifice. But imagine that person would have rather they been the one who died?
When you impose your will on reality, you are attempting to align reality as it is, with reality as you’ve imagined it. Because the imagination is composed entirely of yourself, no act of will can truly be selfless. Unless you can actually enter the mind of another person, you are just guessing what someone’s interests are based on your perspective. Yes empathy centers in our brain counteract our selfish impulses and give us chemical rewards when we successfully anticipate the interests of our fellow monkeys. But without the reward system to make empathetic actions within our self interest, we become the manipulative sociopaths you describe.
The success of capitalism is realizing that all action is self interested action. It creates reward centers outside the brain with labor vouchers to incentivize behavior that is beneficial to the community as a whole. Obviously in modern times capitalism taken to the extreme has yielded the negative outcomes you speak of which I agree are problems of unregulated self interests of a few very powerful individuals. Socialist programs and waaaaaay more transparency and honesty and TRUTH are going to be how we counteract that you’re so right.
But I don’t think you have to whimsically dismiss the concept of intrinsic self interest which is very well argued for in philosophy and has a lot more scientific evidence to back it up. This is probably why people are so stubborn when you insist it’s not true. Certainly there are degrees, not every action is as selfish as another. But EVERY act of empathy has some degree of self interest, even if it’s purely neurochemical.
Clear as a bell. THANK you for writing this, for articulating this.
Man's existence precedes his essence. We choose our own nature, and in doing so, we define what we would like all humanity to be and contribute to that goal.
We are animals and animals do have competitive natures.. the fact that we have evolved societies that are based on cooperation tells us we have indeed evolved. But it is no surprise that there are many still on the animal level.. and not just our supreme leaders.. at every level of society there are sociopaths. malignant narcissists... that has to be admitted and dealt with.. in an organized manner... if we can heal the local ecosystem, we might have a shot at healing the big time ones.
Alcohol, empathy, and morality: acute effects of alcohol consumption on affective empathy and moral decision-making
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-019-05314-z
Caitlin, this would have made a great sermon at the National Cathedral this Sunday - really. The Why not stop? question is, of course, the correct one - the moral one. But nobody seems able to answer it. That is what happens when emotion (fear and loathing) dominates reasoning. Even simple solutions are unfathomable.